Introducing VSV = Versatile Separated Values. Simple, elegant format usable for lists, tables, object notation, subtitles, playlists.
Started by Den, 2011-Mar-08 15:26
UNSHIFTEDjfubz xwlcqsaenp mtoirv,yh' kdg."SHIFTEDJFUBZ XWLCQSAENP MTOIRV(YH; KDG):
UNSHIFTEDjgupk qflcxhaenr dtois"byw' vm,.zSHIFTEDJGUPK QFLCXHAENR DTOIS:BYW; VM()Z
UNSHIFTED',.cq xyugjroitf mneas"wldv khpbzSHIFTED:()CQ XYUGJROITF MNEAS;WLDV KHPBZ
UNSHIFTED"scg. ,uof'wnthm pieayqvlrk xdbzjSHIFTED:SCG( )UOF;WNTHM PIEAYQVLRK XDBZJ
UNSHIFTED"vrldb juoiqwsthf ,naeykcmgx "pz.'SHIFTEDVRLDB JUOIQWSTHF ;NAEYKCMGX (PZ):
Letters may be put outside 10x3 block.UNSHIFTED SHIFTEDznmcg /uoyj q ZNMCG ?UOYJ Qprtsd .aeih PRTSD )AEIHvlwfb -,'"k x VLWFB _(:;K X196.847 total effort 118.770 positional effort left right2.721 same finger rp 1.869 shift same finger top 11.8 10.363.913 hand alternat. 41.454 shift hand alter. mid 20.8 24.02.075 inward/outward 30.607 inward or outward bot 7.5 5.913.098 adjacent 13.472 shift adjacent sum 44.0 56.010.866 no hand altern. 42.637 two hand altern.5.452 seesaw 5.361 indir same fingerLP LR LM LI LT RT RI RM RR RP LS RS2.7 12.8 9.9 14.6 4.0 15.7 14.8 13.7 7.4 4.4 Sh 4.0 2.9
Letters restricted to inside 10x3 block.UNSHIFTED SHIFTEDznmcg 'oiuj - ZNMCG :OIUJ _prtsd ,aehk PRTSD (AEHKvlwfb q."yx / VLWFB Q);YX ?206.646 total effort 125.463 positional effort left right2.811 same finger rp 1.869 shift same finger top 11.8 13.063.913 hand alternat. 41.454 shift hand alter. mid 20.8 19.81.952 inward/outward 30.518 inward or outward bot 7.5 7.414.128 adjacent 17.011 shift adjacent sum 44.0 56.010.866 no hand altern. 42.637 two hand altern.5.648 seesaw 5.328 indir same fingerLP LR LM LI LT RT RI RM RR RP LS RS2.7 12.8 9.9 14.6 4.0 15.7 16.3 13.9 6.5 3.5 Sh 4.0 2.9
Quote from: Den on 2011-Mar-08 15:26[/spoiler]
Quote from: iandoug on 2016-Jul-04 01:13hiJust wondering how you arrived at these weightings, they differ a bit from those used in developing the Workman layout.http://www.workmanlayout.com/blog/I still need to compare against Michael Dickens' values.BTW these captchas are even worse than the ones on GeeekHack.Thanks, Ian
Quote from: iandoug on 2016-Jul-06 10:43And please ask your admins to implement https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2014/12/05/i-am-not-a-robot-google-swaps-text-captchas-for-quivery-mouse-clicks/the captchas on this site are ridiculous.Cheers, Ian
leftznmcg top 11.8prtsd mid 22.2vlwfb bot 8.4 sum 42.42.5 13.8 10.6 15.5P R M I
leftznlcf top 13.2prtsd mid 22.2vbmgw bot 7.0 sum 42.42.5 11.8 12.4 15.8P R M I
right'oiuj top 14.2,aehk mid 21.8q."yx bot 3.2 sum 39.214.7 15.7 7.5 1.2I M R P
right'uohq top 12.3.aeik mid 23.6x,"yj bot 3.2 sum 39.211.1 15.8 11.2 1.1I M R P
Opted 1 292.209 total effort 90.601 positional effort left right 2.324 same finger rp 1.059 shift same finger top 11.8 14.2 znmcg'oiuj/ 66.771 hand alternat. 32.213 shift hand alter. mid 22.2 21.8 prtsd,aehk 1.792 inward/outward 29.119 inward or outward bot 8.4 3.2 vlwfbq."yx- 14.287 adjacent 23.203 shift adjacent sum 43.3 56.7 9.048 no hand altern. 43.311 two hand altern. 5.137 seesaw 5.387 indir same finger2.5 13.8 10.6 15.5 0.9 17.5 14.7 15.7 7.5 1.2 Sh 0.9 1.5
Opted 2 294.290 total effort 89.338 positional effort left right 2.737 same finger rp 1.059 shift same finger top 13.2 12.3 znlcf'uohq/ 66.771 hand alternat. 32.213 shift hand alter. mid 22.2 23.6 prtsd.aeik 1.987 inward/outward 28.706 inward or outward bot 7.0 3.2 vbmgwx,"yj- 13.596 adjacent 17.196 shift adjacent sum 43.3 56.7 9.048 no hand altern. 43.311 two hand altern. 4.936 seesaw 5.189 indir same finger2.5 11.8 12.4 15.8 0.9 17.5 11.1 15.8 11.2 1.1 Sh 0.9 1.5
Quote from: iandoug on 2016-Jul-10 10:22HiInteresting.Are you running the analyzer locally or on the official web site? Am asking because I'm not sure how to give it a layout to analyze, since new submissions are not accepted ... Do I just 'configure' a layout and it will use it?The layout I'm playing with uses both thumbs, and not sure if his algorithm will handle that.
QuoteSomething that I feel the keyboard analyzers I know about don't consider, is the position of your hand after you move it to stretch for a key. I actually use my pinky less than other people because both are missing the last joint, so I tend to use the ring finger more. Also I'm not a touch typist in the formal sense, and I suspect most people are not either... when I'm typing, my fingers are NOT touching the home keys and pressing, I acually seem to use my index finger and middle finger much more than the others (am noticing this now because I'm paying attention to it as I type...)Anyway, let's say you need to type a } on a QWERTY layout .. isn't your hand going to move up to the top row, so that if you then need a letter from the top row, there is less of a penalty than if your had just typed a K for example?
QuoteFuther, most keyboards are staggered, and the fingers can't just move up and down, they need to go sideways too, which again moves the hand, and affects the penalty or otherwise of the next letter. Am I being clear enough here? :-)
QuoteOh yes, so how does your layout look now? And it's Official Name? :-)
UNSHIFTED SHIFTEDznlcf 'uohq ZNLCF ;UOHQprtsd .aeik PRTSD :AEIKvbmgw x,"yj VBMGW X()YJ
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-13 00:49Are you making a new layout manually, or with the help of a program?
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-13 00:49For best results, use an enormous corpus that incorporates different styles, including (English) prose, code, messages and communications, website text, lists (of random stuff), encyclopedia, etc. Save it all in one text file which you can then reuse.
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-13 00:49I wouldn't worry too much about winning all the tests. You should decide which metrics are the most important. For me they are avoiding any pinky usage, high hand alternation, and excellent inward rolls. Bigrams and inward rolls seem to be important to touch typists and keyboard theorists, but may not necessarily apply to others (since I haven't seen much studies or discussion about what's best for hunt-and-pecking.)
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-13 00:49I haven't the patience to play with Michael Dickens' analyzer. (Maybe one day...) I did find something interesting while reading his old site. He compared one of my very early layout, Amuseum's Layout, and it placed 6 out of 18. Not too bad for my primitive works, and proves that my older theories hold water. I just tested it in Keyboard Layout Analyzer and it surprisingly holds up quite well against Colemak.
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-13 13:50Second, your left thumb usage is unusually higher than other layouts. I'm guessing you put E in left thumb. But that doesn't explain the unusually high left middle finger. Thus I would be cautious of high same finger usage for middle left finger.
QNLCF X.OHJPRTSD UAEIKVBMGW ',"YZ
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-14 13:13I'm playing with fixing the period (.) on the top index. This will improve "e." combo slightly, but most importantly put the dot closer to the number row to help type decimals. This one of the great innovation I learned from Dvorak.
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-14 13:13There are some minor changes as a result. U moves into period's old spot in the home inner-index. Z and Q swap hands. X and ' swap rows. For traditional analyzers, this actually scores a bit better than BEAKL 2.0 because those tests prefer the U on the home row. Meanwhile, it tends to outscore all the layouts for writing code. So overall I think this is a great change.
134 271.035 total effort 106.408 positional effort left right 3.004 same finger rp 2.921 shift same finger top 12.4 10.9 vncdfu.o/q 64.215 hand alternat. 45.894 shift hand alter. mid 16.1 20.4 brshmyiaez 1.871 inward/outward 30.002 inward or outward bot 8.6 5.4 wlgpkx,'"j- 14.586 adjacent 11.551 shift adjacent sum 47.3 52.7 t 9.549 no hand altern. 42.280 two hand altern. 4.575 seesaw 3.720 indir same finger 3.0 12.8 9.1 12.3 10.1 16.0 12.5 12.1 11.1 1.0 Sh 3.7 3.2
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-14 17:00There are some errors in your layout. You don't have a capital "I", only "i".
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-14 17:00Your layouts are great in prose, unfortunately tend to lag behind in everything else (code, numbers, random stuff).
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-14 17:00Putting a letter on a thumb may squeeze a bit more performance. Maybe I'll try "A" or "S" there, too. The common trigram " a " could be icebreaker. But according to my digram chart, "T" is the most common digram with SPACE.
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-14 17:00Quick change to the Opt program produced this:[cut]It doesn't seem the patorjk analyzer give the thumb any advantages, but the AdNW/Opt does. Opt gives about 17% - 21% better effort score to my new thumb layouts.
Quote from: iandoug on 2016-Jul-14 18:37Sorry, please advise re AdNW/Opt ... Google won't tell me.
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-14 23:04What if more thumb buttons were added? Would that improve performance, and if so by how much?Some keyboards with thumbwells have four big thumb keys that could be reassigned to letters. Including the space, three letters could fit there.The top candidate is T from what we discovered earlier. I also saw the optimizer put R on the thumb. I guess the third could be one of HEAS, but I wonder that the optimizer will say.
BEAKL Thumb 1 224.068 total effort 78.409 positional effort left right 3.496 same finger rp 7.918 shift same finger top 9.3 10.3 \"ou-bdclq 64.288 hand alternat. 45.701 shift hand alter. mid 18.2 16.1 zea.yfhstw 1.548 inward/outward 29.437 inward or outward bot 4.7 7.4 j/',xkpgmv 12.842 adjacent 8.308 shift adjacent sum 52.7 47.3 i_rn 9.429 no hand altern. 42.298 two hand altern. 4.061 seesaw 4.904 indir same finger 0.4 11.1 12.1 8.7 20.4 13.4 11.1 9.1 11.9 1.9 Sh 3.2 3.7
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-15 04:01I managed to recompile opt to accept 34 keys to fit the extra 4 thumb keys. (I added "\|" to fit the required amount of characters.) The suprising 4 characters it put on the thumb well are "_INR" where _ is the space. Here's the optimal layout it spit out:
BEAKL Thumb 1.1 224.133 total effort 78.048 positional effort left right 3.497 same finger rp 7.957 shift same finger top 10.3 9.3 qlcdb-uo"\ 64.292 hand alternat. 45.646 shift hand alter. mid 16.2 18.2 wtshfy.aez 1.546 inward/outward 29.432 inward or outward bot 7.5 4.7 vmgpkx,'/j 12.848 adjacent 8.346 shift adjacent sum 47.3 52.7 nr_i 9.430 no hand altern. 42.292 two hand altern. 4.062 seesaw 4.906 indir same finger 1.9 11.9 9.1 11.1 13.4 20.4 8.7 12.1 11.1 0.4 Sh 3.7 3.2
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-15 04:24I'm trying to include ENTER key as part of the layout. But I need to figure out the correct character to represent it in the code.
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-15 04:24How do you remember where all the keys are? And the keycaps?
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-15 04:24Dvorak typists may prefer the other layout with all the vowels on the left hand.
Quote from: iandoug on 2016-Jul-15 04:58Hex 13 / D In Patrick's he uses U:Dso probably something like \x0d or somesuch ... not sure how C++ handles these things.
QuoteI read somewhere that E should be on the right hand but that was just an opinion based on most people being right handed (and having ambidextrous spacebar). Also saw some people complaining about a new commercial Ergo board that only provided Space on right thumb ... the lefties were upset. My keyboard tries to be ambidextrous in that regard... you could also remap the arrows keys. I think a lot of complaints (and the whole "make keyboard as small as possible to bring the mouse closer" arguments) would go away if people realised that yes, you can actually use the mouse with your left hand, and yes, it does work better. You just need to be aware that there are right-hand versions of ctrl c/v/x that were defined by IBM :-)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_AccessI've been using the mouse on my left hand since the 1990s. It still confuses people. The idea originated from some techie in a corporate I was in at the time.
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-15 05:15The config file doesn't seem to accept escape codes.
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-15 05:15Well, many ergo mice only come in right hand versions.
Quote from: iandoug on 2016-Jul-15 17:17I loaded it in Patrick's analyzer... score was not to my liking (on Alice) so tried to improve it ...Best I've got to at the moment is http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/load/KGLSJrrNbut still way behind your other layouts ... .what do the Germans say about my version?I'm not happy with the pinky load at the moment ;-)
Quote from: iandoug on 2016-Jul-15 07:29The standard.cfg file mentions Taste RTRN 15 2 13.50 1.5 5 - 7 # Returnbut it's commented out ... maybe you just need to add it to your custom defs?
Quote from: iandoug on 2016-Jul-15 08:59I've installed LogKeys, will let it run a day or three to get a better idea of what I actually type, and use that for optimising. However I don't think the optimiser programs pay attention to Backspace and delete, do they?....Was thinking before that you should be able to set an error percentage figure for the optimiser... eg every 10 letters you make a mistake and need to backspace, or somesuch ...
BEAKL Thumb 4 224.331 total effort 81.877 positional effort left right 3.056 same finger rp 9.094 shift same finger top 8.9 10.9 \/o.xbdclq 65.022 hand alternat. 39.478 shift hand alter. mid 21.5 17.0 zeaiyfhstw 1.351 inward/outward 29.075 inward or outward bot 3.2 7.8 j"',-kpgmv 12.677 adjacent 11.136 shift adjacent sum 52.8 47.2 unr 8.927 no hand altern. 42.224 two hand altern. 4.066 seesaw 3.986 indir same finger 0.4 10.9 12.1 10.2 19.2 11.5 11.7 9.6 12.5 2.0 Sh 3.4 1.2
UNSHIFTED SHIFTEDqnlcf x.ohj QNLCF X:OHJprtsd uaeik PRTSD UAEIKvbmgw ',"yz VBMGW ;()YZ
Quote from: Den on 2016-Jul-15 18:34the problem is Patrick's analyzer (PA) is bugged for thumb layouts. you can see that the other fingers distance doesn't drop, maybe even rises, when letters are put at thumb. there may be some penalty for digrams with thumb keys.pinky is the case in point. how can "\ZJ" be 1086.0 pts. when "ZPV" is 318.8 pts.? the points should be half as much, not three times higher.
Opted4 307.727 total effort 120.514 positional effort left right 2.969 same finger rp 2.638 shift same finger top 9.1 12.9 joy.xfclnz 64.717 hand alternat. 37.242 shift hand alter. mid 25.1 22.7 haeiudstrpk 1.834 inward/outward 29.468 inward or outward bot 4.5 7.6 '"/,-wgmbvq 12.288 adjacent 13.971 shift adjacent sum 55.5 44.5 _ 9.863 no hand altern. 42.253 two hand altern. 4.559 seesaw 4.538 indir same finger 3.5 12.8 11.5 11.0 16.7 1.4 15.3 12.5 11.6 3.8 Sh 3.2 1.4
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