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Author Topic: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout  (Read 343918 times)

philippe.quesnel

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1750 on: 2020-Mar-09 08:00 »
Catering for this sort of function in an analyzer will require an additional metric : time. We would need some ballpark of "average", eg at 45 words per minute, the typist types x keys per second. Also some ballpark for the delays on those sort of keys. I typically shorten the default delay on KDE/X/Linux because it feels just too long before it starts repeating, but I assume the average user will just live with what is set as default.

Cheers, Ian
indeed.
there is no delay used in the dual mode I use, but it does have the drawback that it indirectly imposes a delay before you hit the next key, ie you cannot do rolls.
For example if using a dual mode shift, rolling that key with another actually means you are holding down both at the same time, so the dual mode key then acts as a modifier and instead of br you get R .
In practice it usually isn't a problem.
Hmm, might become a problem with my idea of placing dual mode shifts on home row! Oops.. I'll see how it goes.

moesasji

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1751 on: 2020-Mar-09 19:46 »
I do find using the shift keys difficult sometimes and by mixing the two ideas, I came up with the idea of using dualMode for shift .. on the pinkies .. on home row !
So my pinkies will ALREADY be on the Shift keys, just press/hold, no need to move the finger to the key and then press/hold !

Always great to hear that ideas trigger new lines of exploration; Note that the idea of having modifiers on the home-row has been around for some time, see for example: https://adamgordonbell.com/posts/2016-08-22-modifier-keys-in-the-home-row.html Although the idea looks great I didn't find it that comfortable as having to hold a key to act as a modifier on a frequently used key is slow in practice.

My impression is that people that have tried modifiers on the home-row generally move away from it again. As an extreme example it might be worth looking at the readme here: https://github.com/lydell/keyboard as that person has even written software to implement the home-row modifiers early on, but subsequently went for more extreme solutions (= modifiers on number row, which seems bonkers)

I personally have gone for making my modifiers (except the AltGr on Space) as sticky, which really feels great with the shift right next to the home-positions. Essentially I hit my shift, ctrl and alt-key as I would do any other key as a sequence, without holding a key. This move was large inspired by the explorations on keyboard layouts for ergodox/model01 here: https://asylum.madhouse-project.org/blog/2016/10/15/multi-purpose-keys/ (lots of ideas in the series of blog posts and well worth a read for those interested in exploring keyboard layouts)

btw) Actually in the process of trying to move myself off having AltGr on space as the press/hold does slow me down in practice. Still undecided what the best alternative is though.

philippe.quesnel

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1752 on: 2020-Mar-10 09:52 »
...
btw) Actually in the process of trying to move myself off having AltGr on space as the press/hold does slow me down in practice. Still undecided what the best alternative is though.
Hehe, trying things out .. then changing back to more normal ways, I know the feeling ;-)
Thank you for the references for ideas, I will look at them.

As far as the dualMode spacebar used to act as altGr, in my case, I do find that if there are too many keys to access on the alt layer, it gets tedious .. which is why I like the "LT" part of the BEAKL PLLT (pinky less Less Thumb) : moving space away from the thumbs (spacebar in my case) did reduce the intensive spacebar usage.

philippe.quesnel

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1753 on: 2020-Mar-10 10:09 »
Hmm, surprised about these results ...
I was fiddling with my modified MTGAP, working on LaSalle home row (AWEF JIO:), reduced keys set, partial PLLT layouts.

Comparing to BEAKL PLLT x1 which is my current favorite layout.
In KLA, I use a compound of texts alice+jonathan+prince+farm+dragonboy
and PLLT is #1 of the KLA default presets in these tests.

I was getting results were my layouts are form 0% to 4% 'better' / equal to PLLT.
Usually changes just bring small increments in the results, but
I then changed from 24keys to 26keys .. and got a layout which jumped to 10% better than everything else !

Somehow I feel there must be a mistake hahaha.
It IS missing some symbols, but I don't think this changes the results here (still have to manually do the shift layers and place all symbols .. would not do too well for programming right now I think)

Code: [Select]
    a  e  v         h  t  s          "  .  ?         !  p  w   
 g  i  o SP  -   m  n  d  r  c    (  )  ;  y  [   ]  ,  k  x  z
 '  =  *  u  _   f  l  q  j  b    {  &  <  /  \   +  :  >  |  }

Spacebar is my altGr key, sometimes I try using it also for B or Y (which is same key with Space !)

Am I missing something here that would "burst my bubble !" ?? ;-)
or are these results correct (with this text selection in KLA)
thx

iandoug

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1754 on: 2020-Mar-10 12:13 »
Am I missing something here that would "burst my bubble !" ?? ;-)
or are these results correct (with this text selection in KLA)

Did you upload correct json file?

Error with mtgapLs26Sp1.6.json : mtgapLs26Sp1.6, duplicate character on keyboard: P (80)
Error with mtgapLs26Sp1.6.json : mtgapLs26Sp1.6, duplicate character on keyboard: W (87)
Error with mtgapLs26Sp1.6.json : mtgapLs26Sp1.6, duplicate character on keyboard: Y (89)
Error with mtgapLs26Sp1.6.json : mtgapLs26Sp1.6, duplicate character on keyboard: K (75)
Error with mtgapLs26Sp1.6.json : mtgapLs26Sp1.6, duplicate character on keyboard: X (88)
Error with mtgapLs26Sp1.6.json : mtgapLs26Sp1.6, duplicate character on keyboard: Z (90)
 Error with mtgapLs26Sp1.6.json : mtgapLs26Sp1.6, characters not on keyboard: kpwxyz`~@#$%^

philippe.quesnel

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1755 on: 2020-Mar-10 14:55 »
Did you upload correct json file?

Error with mtgapLs26Sp1.6.json : mtgapLs26Sp1.6, duplicate character on keyboard: P (80)
Error with mtgapLs26Sp1.6.json : mtgapLs26Sp1.6, duplicate character on keyboard: W (87)
Error with mtgapLs26Sp1.6.json : mtgapLs26Sp1.6, duplicate character on keyboard: Y (89)
Error with mtgapLs26Sp1.6.json : mtgapLs26Sp1.6, duplicate character on keyboard: K (75)
Error with mtgapLs26Sp1.6.json : mtgapLs26Sp1.6, duplicate character on keyboard: X (88)
Error with mtgapLs26Sp1.6.json : mtgapLs26Sp1.6, duplicate character on keyboard: Z (90)
 Error with mtgapLs26Sp1.6.json : mtgapLs26Sp1.6, characters not on keyboard: kpwxyz`~@#$%^
"Pop"... that's the sound of the bursting bubble ;-)
just had a quick look at the file I have on github ..
apparently, some of the characters ended up in uppercase that were not supposed to be !??
Darn, oh well. I well check it out at home and fix it .. and try again. Dunno how I missed this ! :(
I expect it should be around the same performance level as my other layouts / similar to PLLT
As far as `~@#$%^ go, I currently have only 26 symbols, so it is normal (I mentioned I need to complete the layout for missing symbols)
(I create the KLA json files from text files that contain the basics of the layout)

thank you
But that of course explains why it was doing so well .. old trick : just remove some keys from the layout, and VOILA super hot layout hahaha

philippe.quesnel

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1756 on: 2020-Mar-10 19:27 »
But that of course explains why it was doing so well .. old trick : just remove some keys from the layout, and VOILA super hot layout hahaha
So, yes, everything on the alt layers was uppercase ..
more sensible results now !
Oh, iandoug, how do you get those specific messages about the missing characters ?
I can see stuff on the jscript console, but not a clear, concise log like what you've shown me !
« Last Edit: 2020-Mar-10 19:32 by philippe.quesnel »

iandoug

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1757 on: 2020-Mar-11 03:46 »
Oh, iandoug, how do you get those specific messages about the missing characters ?

I'm using a program I wrote to check the layouts. It was written for bulk-processing the layouts and loading them into my database. So dunno what state the database is in now after various scans of assorted new and broken layouts.

Let me see if I can remove the unnecessary stuff and post it. It was designed for handling json that conformed to my desired standards regarding naming conventions etc ... suppose can comment those bits out.

Will revert later.

Cheers, Ian

philippe.quesnel

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1758 on: 2020-Mar-11 08:01 »
Quote
Let me see if I can remove the unnecessary stuff and post it. It was designed for handling json that conformed to my desired standards regarding naming conventions etc ... suppose can comment those bits out.

Will revert later.

Cheers, Ian
Oh, ok.. if it's not too much trouble, otherwise it's ok, I can manage 😎
Thank you

boogerlad

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1759 on: 2020-May-29 23:10 »
What's the suggested method of learning BEAKL? I will be building a DMOTE but I only have experience with QWRETY.

iandoug

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1760 on: 2020-May-30 02:11 »
What's the suggested method of learning BEAKL? I will be building a DMOTE but I only have experience with QWRETY.

Which version in particular?

Cheers, Ian

boogerlad

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1761 on: 2020-May-30 06:56 »
BEAKL 15 I suppose? That is the latest recommended layout right? I suppose I'll need to modify the layout anyways since I'll have 7 thumb keys per hand.
« Last Edit: 2020-May-30 07:06 by boogerlad »

Den

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1762 on: 2020-May-30 11:27 »
Which OS and firmware?

Windows Autohotkey (remapped over OS's "United States-Dvorak") (CapsLock to enter/leave Punctuation layer)
Linux XKB
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boogerlad

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1763 on: 2020-May-30 12:55 »
I dual boot between Debian and Windows 10. As for the firmware, maybe QMK or kiibohd.  About learning it, should I modify https://learn.dvorak.nl/ with words from the home block? Any specific finger techniques / movement patterns I should learn? I'm sure I developed bad habits with QWERTY.

Den

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1764 on: 2020-May-30 13:10 »
Thanks Graeme for promoting BEAKL 15 on r/ErgoDoxEZ :

Layout of the month: BEAKL 15


iandoug

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1765 on: 2020-May-30 13:17 »
I dual boot between Debian and Windows 10. As for the firmware, maybe QMK or kiibohd.  About learning it, should I modify https://learn.dvorak.nl/ with words from the home block? Any specific finger techniques / movement patterns I should learn? I'm sure I developed bad habits with QWERTY.

Sorry I only have BEAKL 10 ... too many things happened after that point and I never got around to testing all the newer layouts.

The left hand side looks pretty similar, with changes on the right.

If you scroll down to the bottom here, there are word lists for v 10 which may be of some use:

https://www.keyboard-design.com/letterlayout.html?layout=beakl-10.en.matrix

Cheers, Ian

Den

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1766 on: 2020-May-30 13:30 »
About learning it, should I modify https://learn.dvorak.nl/ with words from the home block? Any specific finger techniques / movement patterns I should learn? I'm sure I developed bad habits with QWERTY.

https://learn.dvorak.nl/ should work fine. although lesson 1 omits the letter i. Lesson 2 includes i, however uses much longer words.

this site also has a simple Dvorak lesson plan. for that matter, would be good idea to modify it for BEAKL.

later to test your typing speed, go https://www.speedtypingonline.com/typing-test and select Sight Words (easy to type)
« Last Edit: 2020-May-30 13:37 by Den »

boogerlad

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1767 on: 2020-May-30 17:11 »
Looking around, there seem to be versions newer than 15. Where can I find them and where are they documented? I'm curious to see what has changed and what are the possible benefits. Is 19 the latest?

Den

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1768 on: 2020-May-31 04:47 »
BEAKL 19 has better same-finger and rolls than BEAKL 15. at the expense of more pinky usage putting the H and P there. Also comma is curiously at the right corner, but this again reduces same-finger.

see attached

Try out BEAKL 19 and tell us what you think.
« Last Edit: 2020-May-31 16:20 by Den »

iandoug

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1769 on: 2020-May-31 05:50 »
hi Den

BEAKL 19 has better same-finger and rolls than BEAKL 15. at the expense of more pinky usage putting the H and P there. Also comma is curiously at the right corner, but this again reduces same-finger.

see attached

Try out BEAKL 19 and tell us what you think.

Do you have .json?

Thanks, Ian

Den

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1770 on: 2020-May-31 16:20 »
see above

iandoug

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1771 on: 2020-May-31 16:27 »
see above

Thanks... will revert.

Cheers, Ian

iandoug

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1772 on: 2020-May-31 16:51 »
see above

Tried to load it on klatest and popup says invalid input ....

My layout checker complains about the first key which seems to be ASCII 19 ?
« Last Edit: 2020-May-31 16:59 by iandoug »

Den

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1773 on: 2020-May-31 20:49 »
ASCII 19 is used in KLAtest to toggle numlock state.

iandoug

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1774 on: 2020-Jun-01 03:27 »
ASCII 19 is used in KLAtest to toggle numlock state.

Okay I can add it to my "known" ASCII codes for checking purposes, but KLAtest didn't like it ....

Will try fiddling and see if I can get it to load. Might be because the lines were so long? My editor complained but browsers should not care.

Thanks, Ian


iandoug

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1775 on: 2020-Jun-01 04:20 »
Sorry my confusion.

Added ASCII 19 to program and both beakl 15 and 19 check okay.

Think the problem with copy-paste of file from editor was that I was only getting the first 4096 chars (default line length)... when I over-rode the line length limit and reloaded, then it loads fine in KLATest.

Cheers, Ian



Den

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1776 on: 2020-Jun-04 19:56 »
BEAKL 19 looks great on paper, however too much outward rolls felt awkward. So by borrowing its Opt config file, but restricting the most common letters 'ETA' to predefined locations, produced a more recognizable pattern of previous BEAKL layouts (HIEA), but with the low same finger rate of BEAKL 19.

Code: [Select]
BEAKL Arr 29k 1

qyouz wdnck
hiea, gtrsp
j' .x vmlfb

Notes on naming convention. 'Arr' means reserves the left hand bottom middle key for the up arrow (the remaining arrows are placed below like a typical arrow cluster.) 29k means 29 keys (because taken one key out for the arrow). 1 is obviously the first iteration of this concept that I believe is viable for general public.

Den

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1777 on: 2020-Jun-04 20:00 »
updated KLAtest with new corpora: real estate ads, jobs listings, Beowulf in Old English

iandoug

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1778 on: 2020-Jun-05 04:33 »
BEAKL 19 looks great on paper, however too much outward rolls felt awkward. So by borrowing its Opt config file, but restricting the most common letters 'ETA' to predefined locations, produced a more recognizable pattern of previous BEAKL layouts (HIEA), but with the low same finger rate of BEAKL 19.

I was wondering if the S was going to be overloaded on the index finger. :-)

Cheers, Ian

iandoug

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1779 on: 2020-Jun-05 04:44 »
updated KLAtest with new corpora: real estate ads, jobs listings, Beowulf in Old English

Beowulf will cause problems ... too many "not on keyboard" characters.

I have the Magna Carta in Latin and English (cleaned up) if interested.

English layouts tend to handle Latin okay. Odd :-)

Cheers, Ian

Den

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1780 on: 2020-Jun-05 09:50 »
I was wondering if the S was going to be overloaded on the index finger. :-)

Cheers, Ian

S on index is not the problem. The main issue were T and A on the ring fingers. Thus I forced them off.

graemeg

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1781 on: 2020-Jun-09 08:45 »
For those interested, here is the BEALK-19 Ergodox layout. The KLATest only had the Matrix version, whereas the Ergodox versions tend to score a little higher (I guess less finger travel).

graemeg

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Re: [BEAKL] Balanced Effortless Advanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1782 on: 2020-Jun-09 09:03 »
I have a Keyboardio Atreus on order. It is slightly different to the original Atreus, as it has 2 extra keys in the centre. Thus 44 keys in total. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/keyboardio/atreus/

I'm using the BEAKL-15 layout as my primary layout on my Ergodox keyboards (work and home). The layout can be seen here:
  https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/BNpaO/latest/0

But want to see if I can prepare for when the Atreus arrives. I would like to use BEAKL-15 on it too, but the 44-keys are a challenge (at least when it comes to KLA analysis as in only uses AltGr). Maybe the support of multiple programmable layers will come in handy.

As none if the KLA forks have support for the Atreus layout, I used my Ergodox and only limited myself to the keys similar to the Keyboardio Atreus. I was using a different KLA fork (the one from keyboard-design.com), and there Ian's X1 Ergolinear always scores on top. As I'm open to adopting a new layout I played with X1 as a start, and called my new layout "X1 Atreus/Ergodox 44-keys" - and it scores pretty well so far. As it only uses 44-keys, the finger travel is very low. I had to get creative with the X and Z keys, and adjust the symbol that used to be on them.

Attached is a screenshot and JSON layout file.

Next I'll be looking at doing similar by adapting BEAKL-15 for the 44-key layout. For real world usage (I'm a Java Software Engineer), I would definitely need access to Function keys, Arrows, Navigation keys etc. So multiple layers are required. Time to get even more creative. :-)

 

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